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Is the chart of scales make feel what you believe or is it an independant accurate map of awareness [Mar. 14th, 2006|09:46 pm]
Universal Conscious Practice
ucp
[justintonation]
Well this has already been sort of brought up. The chart of scales is a sort of catch all of scales because no matter how you feel you can find a close analogue on the chart. UCP clearly produces beneficial change, that is easy to demonstrate and to observe in other people. Recently KP has started doing sessions again and has made enormous progress compared to when he seemed stalled and was actually (by his own admission) not doing sessions.

I have noticed that the chart of scales seems accurate but this is harder to determine. I do not know. At present I am happy to just keep doing UCP and looking at the chart. Trying to plot your progress clearly does no harm, whether it is accurate or not is debatable.

P.S KP has also admitted that there are errors in the chart which he has noticed which have not been corrected yet. So even the creator of the charts has admitted that the charts we are using are incorrect. Apparently the errors are from +6.0 upwards.

Justin
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: laputain
2006-03-14 08:32 pm (UTC)
My take on it is as follows:

- The major resistance I come across trying to sell people on the benefits of UCP is a perceived connection to $cientology, the Thriving Cult of Greed and Power.
- The Chart, being KP's synthesis of various scales designed by the founder of Scn., is the major remaining link between our practice and the aforementioned cult.
- I regard anything that came out of the rummed out sci-fi author and crook Hubbard's brain with the deepest of suspicion.
- Therefore, I think it would be much easier to get people doing UCP without the Chart than with it.

I would agree that the chart "seems" accurate. But then *any* chart of consciousness "seems" accurate. It's like newspaper horoscopes or personality tests - you can read anything into them that you like. I think new practitioners waste a lot of time and effort trying to "find themselves on the Chart". Eventually you can *convince* yourself that you see yourself and start attempting to progress "up" from there. But that's not the deprogramming which is the undoubted top benefit of UCP - that's just another reprogramming, just what we want to avoid.

I think the Chart is useful as *a* means to track your practice. But I would like to hear about practitioners' experience with other ways of tracking progress. I would certainly prefer to have a slightly more objective way of showing that the practice works, but that might be a long-term project.
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[User Picture]From: darthsappho
2006-03-14 11:34 pm (UTC)
Yes, I'm sure you can always find a close analogue to how you feel on the chart. But that just means the chart is a reasonably comprehensive list of the ways people can feel, it doesn't mean that the _order_ is necessarily meaningful beyond the obvious happy is better than sad is better than suicidal. People's moods will always fluctuate, and I don't believe that how you're feeling at a given moment means much as to your overall mental health.
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From: justintonation
2006-03-15 01:28 pm (UTC)
I used to feel very strongly about eliminating any mention of scientology from UCP. I don't care now. It is just a sad and at the same time happy fact that the technique was developed by a former scientologist. The way I see it is that had KP never done scientology I don't think we would have UCP.

The whole idea that one can actually increase ones awareness and improve oneself through a form of talk therapy is sort of unique to scientology (+ - a few other techniques and groups). Standard psychology has given up on the idea that people can became saner. They now believe that mental illness is a thing that just has to be managed (usually with pills or will power). I think this is partly because psychology sees people as products of their genes and basically stimulus response biological machines.

As for the chart of scales, actually written not by hubbard but by auditors in his church. If you doubt it's validity, does this also go for all charts of awareness? Is there such a thing as measurable improvement. Is the measurable improvement the same for everyone and lastly how do we measure it.

If we reject the chart that we have we need to come up with an alternative.

I remember Ken Wilber had alot of charts of awareness in some of his books. I never read anything by him but I have flicked through his works. Perhaps we need to look elsewhere or else closely at our own sessions to notice these unnamed levels of awareness.

Justin
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[User Picture]From: darthsappho
2006-03-15 09:35 pm (UTC)
I'm not convinced that the sanity of the human mind is measurable or needs to be measured. You don't need a detailed chart to determine whether you're feeling bad less often/intensely and good more often/intensely. The beneficial effects of ucp aren't made any greater by assigning numbers to them, whether or not the numbers are at all meaningful.
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From: justintonation
2006-03-21 08:45 am (UTC)
if the sanity of the human mind is not measurable then the concept of sanity cannot exist either. If you cannot measure who is saner than who then the concept is meaningless and we are all equally sane, clearly this is not the case.

I think anything that can be improved can be measured. If we do not yet know how then that is our own failing and our own lack of insight and knowledge.

But whether it needs to be measured is a good question. I suspect that it depends on the individual. I like the idea of having a roadmap of consciousness and clearly we can make one and improve it if my earlier logic and assertions hold up!

You say that we do not need a detailed chart to "determine whether you're feeling bad less often/intensely and good more often/intensely". Clearly in that circumstance we are just using an unwritten internal measuring stick on ourselves. Perhaps a vague chart of consciousness.

You are right to say that the beneficial effects of UCP are not effected by the chart but the levels on the chart actually do become grist for the mill (so to speak) for new sessions.
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